The “American Shrapnel” Podcast: Investigating a Domestic Terrorist

1996. A blast rips through Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta. The FBI’s initial suspect — a security guard just doing his job — is cleared. The only evidence pointing to the real bomber is a grainy photo. To the FBI, he’s simply “blob man.” They have no idea who he is or how to find him.

You may remember the story of the bomber who blew up the summer Olympics. You might also recall other bombings around the South in the late 1990s. You’ll most likely remember the long manhunt that followed.

Our guest is Becca Andrews, the co-producer and co-host of "American Shrapnel," a podcast that digs deep into Eric Rudolph's crimes, his escape and capture, and the extremist communities that indoctrinated and sheltered him. In this episode, Andrews reflects on investigating crimes from decades ago, interviewing traumatized witnesses, and the long shadow of violent extremism. And she shares her determination to tell these kinds of stories in good faith, with respect for the real people who've lived through violence and its aftermath. 

Host: Hal Humphreys 

Guest: Becca Andrews

Music provided by Jason White, who composed our theme.

Special thanks to Kim Green, who produced this episode.

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Pursuit Magazine and PI Education are part of StoryboardEMP, a media and education company in Nashville, TN. Pursuit, a free online magazine for private investigators, explores all things investigative, from gumshoe techniques and surveillance tech to industry news and crime in media. PI Education, its sister brand, provides online continuing education for licensed PIs. Pursuit and PIed are owned and edited by husband-wife team Hal Humphreys, a PI, and Kim Green, a writer and radio producer.

In this podcast, you'll find episodes that dive deep into the work and the business of private investigations. And at PI Education's YouTube channel, you can dive even deeper into the knowledge pool of this fascinating profession, with regular briefings and webinars. Subscribe to stay up to date!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

1996. Centennial Park in Atlanta becomes anything but a celebration of Olympic spirit. A bomb goes off. Smoke, panic, headlines. The kind of moment that rearranges the city's memory, whether it asked for it or not. The first suspect looks like a hero, then he looks like a villain. And then as these things tend to go, he turns out to be a good guy just doing his job. The trail goes cold, except for one miserable scrap of evidence, a grainy photo. A figure without a name. The FBI, with all its files and fury, calls him Blobman, which is not so much a lead as it is an admission of ignorance. But the story does not end in that park. It wanders, it spreads. Other bombs follow across the south like echoes that refuse to die, and somewhere in that wandering a man slips through the cracks, possibly helped along by people who believe they are serving something higher than law and far lower than decency. Today's guest has spent a good deal of time chasing that ghost. She is a co-host and producer of a podcast that unpacks the bomber, the long escape, the eventual capture, and the communities that this impacted along the way. Stick around. This one does not sit still.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

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SPEAKER_02 1:34

Welcome back, everyone. You're listening to The Sound of Pursuit. I'm Hal Humphreys, your host, and my guest today is a dear friend. Her name is Becca Andrews. Becca and I grew up in the same neck of the woods. She is a West Tennessean just like me. We both came from really, really small places out in the middle of West Tennessee. She, unlike me, has gone on to do some pretty amazing things. She is an incredibly talented talented writer. You heard her objecting to the compliments. An incredibly talented writer, journalist. She's the author of No Choice: The Destruction of Roe v. Wade and the Fight to Protect a Fundamental American Right. Last summer, she co-produced an absolutely gripping eight-episode podcast called American Shrapnel, The Weaponization of Eric Robert Rudolph. Becca, thank you for being here, number one. And number two, I finished the podcast not 10 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Oh. Fresh takes.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

I'm going to tell everybody that listens to this podcast if you are an investigator, if you like learning how investigations uh unfold and how the most random of things can bring everything together, um, which in my experience as an investigator, it's almost always that random thing uh that that brings everything together. Listen to this podcast. The first two episodes to me were just absolutely fantastic from the standpoint of an investigator, um, looking at how um just I don't want to get too deep into it. I want to talk to you about some of the things, but let's let's let's do me a favor and and if you don't mind, tell our listeners a little bit about Beck Andrews. Where do you come from? Um, what is your wheelhouse?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Sure. Um, well, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here, and it's always such a joy to hang out with you. So um, yeah, I I am the aforementioned Becca Andrews. Um like you said, I'm from middle of nowhere, Tennessee. I'm from a small town called Bills, um, which is how you and I first bonded, was realizing that we both knew where our respective towns were, um, and that our high schools played each other in football.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Um and that neither of us really and that neither of us really care about the football game.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Not at all. Not even a little bit, which I guess is why we don't live there anymore. Um but yeah, I I write um about a lot of different things. I I'm primarily a magazine writer. Um, I write about gender and sexuality and reproductive health care. Um, and you know, more and more, the longer I've been covering this sort of thing and religion, uh, the more I've also found myself covering um white supremacy and extremism and the ways that these ideologies are kind of bound up in opposition to uh really basic human rights for for women and for anyone who isn't, you know, a cis straight white male. No offense to present company.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Um, so yeah, like I I got really obsessed with the Rudolph case along with my co-host John Archibald and our co-creator, John Hammondry. And um we just we felt like this story was such a such a perfect encapsulation of this moment, right? Like this thing that happened in the 90s that, you know, very few people remember. And if they remember it, they remember it wrong, right? They think like, oh, Richard Jewell, who like bombed the Olympics, which is not that's not what happened, guys. Um and we'll we'll get into the media failure of all of that, I'm sure. But um, you know, we just felt like it it was such a good um opportunity to look at how young men in this country are radicalized and you know, how there have been these pipelines for for decades to feed young men into this um ideology and and into this idea that like they are the chosen ones and everyone else is is lesser than and any um any challenge to that is a threat. So we we dove in and I I think we were very surprised actually. And we we kind of knew it was gonna be prescient and and of the moment. Um, that's why we were drawn to it in the first place, but I think we were really surprised by just how prescient and of the moment it became.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yeah, and and you know, I I have worked on several cases that involved um actors in the play and witnesses that are in and around the white supremacist world. I have done investigations out and spoke in Washington, Cordily in Idaho, up in that area, um, and and am um I won't say shocked, saddened um by by some of the things I've learned um in the course of those investigations and and how some of these um ideologies stick around um and hang on. But let's go back to 1996 um and get into the story of this, this, this, this, um, this podcast that you guys have put together. Uh Atlanta Summer Olympics 1996. Paint a picture of us, how that day played out in Centennial Park in downtown Atlanta.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So I think, I think first people really need to understand like what a moment this was for the South. Um, and my colleague John Archibald was covering that um for the Birmingham paper at the time. And he does this really beautiful job, I think, of of painting the picture of like it was this moment, right, for the South to prove like, hey, you know, we've come a long way in the past several decades. You know, we've got this thing to show off. Like it was this moment of pride, I think, that Atlanta could host something like the Olympics. And it was also this moment of hope, right? Like it's the 90s, like there's sort of this like broader push toward globalization. There's this like more like progressive ideas are are starting to take root. Um and you know, so I I think it was broadly kind of this moment of of optimism, right? And again, like I'm I'm painting with a very, very broad brush here, but um I I do think that like in the South, like it there's kind of this feeling of like we can't have nice things, right? And so like we had this like beautiful opportunity to show the world like who we actually are, and then things take a turn, right? So um it was late at night. Uh, there was a band wrapping up their set, and uh a call comes in from a phone booth at Centennial Park, which is where the Olympics were being held in Atlanta, and it was a man's voice, and he was saying, There's a bomb in Centennial Park. Um, you have X amount of time to get out before the bomb detonates. Um, that was not true. There was less time than than what this man had promised. Um and I, you know, people didn't really know how seriously to take it. And this is something that happens like throughout the podcasts. There are all these kind of opportunities to take Rudolph seriously and and kind of take him at his word for good or ill. Um, and people just don't. Um, anyway, so he the the sort of like unlikely heroes of the story. Um, one is a a group of boys that we refer to in the podcast as the Speedo Boys, my personal favorite. Um, and they were, you know, they were being kids. They were, you know, kind of messing around and um they like knocked over the backpack that had the bomb in it, which ends up being a key thing. Wild.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

The bomb had been built with a with a metal plate to direct shrapnel, and by knocking it over, it directed it straight up in the air for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah. Just like and like this happens again, like throughout the podcast. Like these, there are these little like interventions of fate um that I find really fascinating and really heartening. Um, but so there are Speedo Boys who like knock over the the bomb and and interrupt its trajectory uh as it wasn't originally intended. Um, and there's Richard Jewel, right? Who like finds it and is like um unattended backpack in a uh crowded area, like you know, let's do something about this. Um the bomb does detonate. Um it kills Alice Hawthorne, um, who is there with her daughter. Um, her daughter saw her mother die, um, which is horrendous. Uh, it injures lots of people. Um, and it, you know, changes the tenor of the games, right? It takes this this moment of hope and joy and celebration and turns it into um this moment of real fear.

unknown 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Um, so that's kind of where it all starts. Um and you know, like like we said earlier, like it in some ways it it just the thing I keep coming back to with this one is it could have been so, so, so much worse. Um so he is also like kind of a shitty bomber, you know, like he's not good at bombing, um, which like thank God.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

But well, that the the the phrase it could have been so much worse in during the course of this podcast, you hear that phrase several times. Um relating to several different things. So Richard Jewell, um, and I think those of us that remember the bombing remember the name Richard Jewell because he became the focus of the investigation for quite some time. Um immediately he's a hero, saved the day, and then they think he did the thing. Almost two years focusing on him. What does that moment say about how these cases go wrong and how they actually get solved? And what does it tell us about ordinary people's role in an investigation?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Great question. I mean, I I think I think there were a lot of things happening at the time. I mean, the the biggest thing was like they just didn't really have any evidence um outside of the phone call. And then they had this like blurry photo uh that they had the blob man, right? Which is also just like such a stupendous metaphor for men in violence and white supremacy and like how it can be anyone, but um so you know, and I think I think with big events like this, when like something happens that is so um profoundly violent, and so many people want answers, and so many people are are outraged and afraid. And I I think there is sort of this pressure for like, okay, like we need blood, like we need a prosecution, like let's let's figure this out. Um, and so I think in in a lot of ways, like Jewel was just in the right place at the right time, but also in the wrong place at the wrong time, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. The media, to be clear, like does this situation, right? Like the media has like descended on Atlanta, they're obsessed with Jewel too. They're publishing all kinds of things that are wildly unethical and inaccurate and like should never have gotten past an editor, much less like a smart reporter. Um so, you know, there as a journalist, I feel like I need to say like the media also like really screwed up here.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Sure. And there, you know, the there's a movie about Richard Jewell and and his situation, and there's some depictions of uh reporters kind of hounding him and saying wrong things. And I was kind of shocked that that was not terribly played up in the movie. It was like an actual depiction of how the thing unraveled. There were some there were some bad actors on the media part, no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Are you talking about the Clint Eastwood one?

SPEAKER_02 14:11

No, uh no, it wasn't Clint Eastwood. I can't remember the the name of the movie. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

There was a the only reason I ask is like one of my favorite things I've ever written was this takedown of the the more recent like Clint Eastwood, Richard Jewell movie. Um because he like depicts one of the women who is covering it as like a slut who's like sleeping with her sources. And um, I just like popped off um and got really angry. And it was kind of a thing that was like in the back of my mind while I was working on this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Fair enough. Fair enough. Anyway. The the the interesting thing to me is so we've got Richard Jewell. Yes, he's a security guard, um, but he's actually doing his job.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

He's doing the thing that he's you know there to do. Um, and then he ends up being a suspect. And then let's move on to we got we got other bombings. We've got the the lesbian club in Atlanta. Um, we've got an abortion clinic in Atlanta, and then an abortion clinic in Birmingham. And give us a quick overview of those bombings and kind of get us to Birmingham. Then I want to talk about Birmingham specifically.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, so you know, time and time again, uh Rudolph pulls off these bombings, like you said, twice in Atlanta, one at um a lesbian bar called the Other Side Lounge, um, where uh a young woman named Memory Creswell is injured um badly. Uh, we talked to her um at length. She is incredible. I I mean, like she is clearly still dealing with the trauma of what happened to her. Um and you know, I I thought like spoke really candidly and really beautifully in the podcast about what this has meant for her life. Um and I think the other thing to to point out about like all all of these places that were bombed were spaces where women congregate. The the Olympics aside, but like you have two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar. Like that's not a coincidence, right? Like this is targeted violence against women. Yeah. Um, so you know, no one no one dies at either of these um bombings in Atlanta. Um, people are badly injured. Um, they are they do both involve two bombs, right? So like one is set off initially, and then another is set off um to detonate when first responders arrive.

unknown 16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

And in the in in in the in the in the frame of it could have been so much worse, um, the the Atlanta abortion clinic bombing, one of the first responders parked their vehicle in front of the second bomb, and it absorbed most of the brush of it force. Um, I think there was a uh a journalist injured in that, but um Yeah, the the the indiscriminate nature of bombing, um, and then as you say, targeting places where women are going to be congregating is is is not a coincidence.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Well, and it's also women like exercising their autonomy in ways that Rudolph would find rancorous, right? So, like women loving other women, women exercising um control over their bodies to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Like these are things that are kind of outside of the realm of femininity that Rudolph finds acceptable. So, like his response to that is to bomb them. Yeah. Which just blows my mind.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Which gets us which gets us to Birmingham. And you know, in in the realm of Eric Robert Rudolph was kind of a shitty bomber. Um if you think in terms of what his goal is, is to do damage to women exercising their rights and and behaving in a way that he doesn't find appropriate. Um, you know, at the Atlanta bombing, he kills a an off-duty police officer, a man, um, and injures horribly a nurse in that clinic, but there's nobody else there. And that's the one where he switched to not a timing device, but he's got a remote control and then there to do the thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Um describe what and to be clear, he you know, he had intended to wait. Like he had intended to detonate the bomb once the waiting room was full of women. Uh, the only reason that he went ahead and detonated it was because Sandy Sanderson, the the officer that you mentioned, um, had like discovered the package and was kind of like poking at it and was about to realize that that it was a bomb. So Rudolph, Rudolph literally watched him do that and then push the button to kill him.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Absolutely terrifying. So in that Birmingham bombing, Rudolph is behind a tree hiding, like uh uh you know uh several people in the podcast described it as a coward. Um and I think it's fair to use that that term, um, but there are some absolute I don't know how else to say it, non-cowardly actors in the next several minutes to even hours. Um and I'm thinking specifically of Jermaine Hughes. Talk to me about Jermaine Hughes.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Jermaine Hughes is this young black man at UAB, University of Alabama, Birmingham. Um, he's a medical student. He is in his dorm doing his laundry and hears this explosion, looks out his window, and sees everyone rushing toward the explosion except for one man.

unknown 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

He thinks, that doesn't look great. And where I think 99.999% of people would have been like, that doesn't look great, and then like gone back to doing their laundry, or like I maybe called the police, maybe this man, this this kid really like gets in his car and takes off after the guy. Just like truly like movie style heroic stuff here. And not only does he like pursue this guy, he follows him through different disguises. So Rudolph keeps like ducking into these alleyways and putting on a wig and putting on a baseball cap. And Jermaine's just like locked in. He's like, nah, man, like I see you. I know what you did. Like, I'm gonna like we're gonna get there. He also, as I mentioned, he's a young black man. Um, he is driving through a white residential neighborhood.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

In Birmingham, Alabama.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

In Birmingham, Alabama. So he keeps asking for help, and he's got these like mostly white women who are skeptical of him and are like, I can't, I don't want like I can't help you. Um, one woman says, uh, well, if you think he did it, I guess you better keep following him, which is like the least helpful thing I can imagine anyone saying ever. Um, and on top of all of that, he's having car trouble.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah. Still he doesn't hoping that his car will keep going.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah. So he's just like out there on a prayer doing his thing, following this man.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And this kid goes into a McDonald's. He's lost the the guy that you've been following. Yeah, he goes to a McDonald's. Uses a phone, calls the cops as he's describing the guy, yet another unsung hero overhears him and says, That's a guy.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah. And so that then you've got Jeff Tickle, who was just there having his like coffee and griddle cakes, as one does in the morning at McDonald's. And uh so he he helps. So Jermaine gets in his car, Jeff Tickle gets in his truck, they like pursue the guy. Uh ultimately Tickle gets uh Rudolph's plate number and writes it down on his McDonald's coffee cup. This this coffee cup is still like in the FBI offices in Birmingham. Um, but it was the first clue, it was the first real tie that we ever had of Rudolph to these bombings. Like if it were not for Jermaine Hughes, no one knows how much longer these bombings would have gone on, how many more people would have died. Like it is truly a remarkable act of heroism that I I think about a lot and that you know gave me still gives me a lot of hope and humanity in a moment that feels you know very politically dark for me personally. Um, so sure. Hats off to Jermaine. We shall be talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Hats off to Jermaine, hats off to Jeff Tickle, both of them for doing the thing that they did. And I think this is probably a good point to talk about there. Your your co-host Archibald talks about um we are our memories are fraught. We are not good um at recalling things the way we think we are. Uh memories get modified. Um you know, you can you can have an interview with someone and change the way they remember a thing, like things like that can happen. So for these two guys to in the moment um proximate to the event, to be taking notes, writing down the the the number plate, doing that business, that gets into the realm of fact and not memory. And I'm I'm as an investigator, if I can find a piece of paper with a note proximate to the thing, I'm usually pretty happy with that. Um, because I know that's that's a good bit of information. Um talk to me about there's one story that your co-host tells about memory and how um things get lodged in there differently. You think you're you think you're at the right place and you're not. Tell us about that story. Real quick.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Oh man, he's gonna kill me. Um it's in the podcast. I know. I but I've had entirely too much fun with this.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Um, because it, you know, if y'all can't already tell, I'm a little bit of a shit. So um, Archibald, and like you have to kind of we have to sort of like put Archibald like in his context, right? Like this is a man he has two Pulitzers, like every you cannot go anywhere in Birmingham, Alabama with this man without like getting stopped several times. So, like he he is massively talented and one of my like dearest friends, and you know, I think one of my creative partners for life. Um, he gets a little big for his britches, you know, like this this happens to the best of us. So we've been talking about this podcast at this point for months, and you know, we're really starting to dig into the thing. And there's this piece of lore that he is like just enamored with. So he tells a story over and over about like how he was the first person to get to Rudolph's trailer in Murphy, North Carolina.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Like he before even the FBI got there.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Before even the FBI got he got the call from his his editor with like the name that like you know they had pulled from the plates too, and his editor said go. And Archibald went and listened to Matchbox 20 and had his like paper maps, and it was all very 90s and very like Matlock or something. And and he he gets he gets there before the cops, he knocks on the door, and nobody answers. But he was the first one to get there. So a few months later, we're like deep into this thing. We have notes, we have interviews, like we're and we're interviewing um two attorneys. Uh, one of them, Mike Wisnant, has just like a treasure trove of records. So we're pouring over all of these um maps and photos and diagrams of the bombs. And you know, we're just like really kind of in it in this like dark conference room in a law office. Um, and he pulls out a photo of Rudolph's trailer. Uh, and I look, I just like happen to look over at Archibald and he's got this look on his face. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? And he was like, that's not that's not the trailer that I went to. I was like, what uh what do you mean that's not he was like, that's not it. I went I went to the wrong damn trailer and I I just have had so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Here's the thing. Oh, because Archbald, if you listen to this podcast, know that we've all done it.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

100%. We've all been to the wrong trailer, baby.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

And we've we've all done it and then told the story as if we did a really and then find out later that oh, we were at the wrong place. Uh look, I've been there, I've totally been there. So we got these these two citizens that that follow Eric Rudolph through Birmingham. They get his number plate, it identifies him, they've got an address. Your guy goes to the house, wrong house, to interview him. Um, the feds get there a couple days later, but Eric Rudolph is nowhere to be seen. He's dark.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

He's gone. And for people that don't remember this, to be go ahead, to be totally fair, like the the feds did get there, like the oatmeal was still hot on the stove. Like they weren't, they weren't too terribly far behind.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

They were and yeah, and and there's there's there's a little, you know, in the things you wish you hadn't done. I think there's probably a prosecutor in Birmingham that is kind of thinking, I wish I hadn't done that press conference. Um because they identified him. Yeah. Um, but for folks that don't remember this, um, and this I was in my 20s when this happened, so it's like not super clear in my memory, but I have really good recollection of they've got this guy cornered in North Carolina, they're gonna catch him. And then we got years. He's gone dark. Um, and there was a manhunt that was like going on for years. Um, there was there was a a command and control center set up there in Murphy, North Carolina. Now, the question I have is I know at trial and and throughout the reporting process of this, he had he was identified as a domestic terrorist. Were there some folks who saw him as some kind of a vigilante doing God's work?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think like, and I think particularly because of like where you and I grew up, I tend to be really careful about generalizing um beliefs by region.

unknown 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

But it is actually really eerie to go to physically go to Murphy and kind of be in that political milieu because it it really is very, very anti-government, very like, do what you gotta do. Um, there's this, I'll never forget like when we when we were up there, there was this gun store with these billboards, and the billboards were like encouraging people to come buy guns to shoot and kill like Andrea or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Illinois, and uh just like reprehensible stuff that like you don't kind of expect to see like blastered on a billboard, even even like me, like little country girl from like middle and nowhere Tennessee. I'm like, oh, even for my people, like that's yeah, it's a little far. So, you know, and at the time, you know, during the manhunt, there was there was lots of media in Murphy. Um, and there were, you know, there were a lot of people who were like, Well, you know, a lot of us don't think that he did anything wrong.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah. So something that we there were t-shirts being sold. Run Rudolph Run.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

There was there was a song, like there's all kinds of like merch popping up, like supporting Rudolph, which is bonkers to me.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

So I'm I'm gonna ask you this. Um, I know you guys touch on it kind of tangentially in the podcast, but do you think people locally there in that North Carolina hill country were actively helping him out, or do you think he was just kind of off in the bush for that period of time?

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I don't buy that he's some great survivalist. Okay. Um, you know, and we we were never able to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Um, but just from like going through the FBI records and from, you know, looking at the photos and and all of the stuff, um, and from like the garbage that was left at his campsite, the the like impression is that there were people who had vacation homes up in that mount, up up in those mountains in the Nanta Halo Mountains, who would like leave their back doors unlocked.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

For him.

unknown 31:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

So I I think that was like I think that was actually as direct help as he got.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

For the most part, you know, beyond that one specific interaction in in the podcast where someone does like give him food and um money. Uh but yes, I do think that like there were people in the community that that helped him.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

One of the interesting little details that I picked up on, um, and we're gonna talk about this next. When he is arrested, uh he's he's digging through the trash behind a shopping center. Um, but he had he had really nice, almost brand new tennis shoes of the time. Um, you know, clean newish clothes. Not what you would expect of someone who's been living in the bush for, you know, that period of time.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Uh so yeah, he was scruffy, but he wasn't gaunt, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah. Let's talk about the the um the investigative prowess that led to the arrest, the actual arrest. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Okay, yeah. So Jeff Pastel um is the one who made the arrest. And this another another kid, frankly. Like this kid was like a rookie cop. He was just like out there doing stuff by the book, you know, doing his his rounds in the middle of the night. Um, and he happens upon Rudolph digging through a dumpster to get food. Again, like this is another reason that I'm a little skeptical of like sort of the great survivalist mythology around Rudolph, right? Um, that he's like digging in this dumpster for food. Um, but yeah, pastel's like, you're not supposed to be here. He makes the arrest, he brings him in. Um, you know, for a while not realizing that he's caught really man in America. Like that he has ended this five-year-long manhunt.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

And this poor, this poor, this poor rookie cop gets identified as like the top one of the top 10 most eligible bachelors um that year in a in a national uh publication. Um I I will say, listening to the podcast, I'm glad to hear that this young man has turned into a you know police for a long time. He's a city councilman in his hometown. Like the this guy's and and he said all along, I was following the playbook that I had been taught by my predecessors. I was doing the things I was supposed to do. I didn't do anything heroic, I just did my job.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah. I mean, hell of an advertisement too, for like doing it by the book, right? And like sort of not getting carried away by these ideas of about like heroism and you know, vigilanteism or or whatever, you know. So like you have like at one point in the manhunt, they had um Bogreites, right? I think a lot of your listeners know who that is. Yeah, but he's you know, like tromping through the forest, like I'm gonna find him and like he's gonna listen to me. And this like comes to nothing, of course. Um, but then you've got this like rookie cop who's just like, I'm gonna do my job and I'm gonna do it like to the letter. And then he bags Rudolph. It's just it's beautiful, yeah. Honestly.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Look, following procedure, and and I'm teaching moment for my private investigator listeners. Um, I have a process for pretty much everything that I do, especially around um locating and interview witnesses. If you follow a process every time, you do it the same way every time, your chances of a good outcome are so, so, so much better. And this, I think this is an object lesson in following process and procedure and doing things by the book actually does work. Um so look, we've spent five years, several millions of dollars on a manhunt, and we just stumbled across this guy digging through the trash. It's a fascinating story. Um, and and I I think it's safe to say that um Eric Robert Rudolph will remain in a supermax prison for the rest of his life.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Um Well, we hope.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Well I yeah, we hope. Um here's the thing there were some arguments about the trial phase or the lack of a trial phase and the deal that was made and that kind of business. I, you know, after listening to the podcast, I understand the rationale for making the deal they made, and I understand um that you know, four consecutive life sentences is basically you're never gonna get out of prison. Um, but I want to I want to talk to you about your investigation. How did the idea for this podcast come together? And who were your reporting partners and how did that collaboration work?

SPEAKER_01 36:50

You know, I can't take any credit for um the actual idea. I think, you know, this was something that like Archibald had been talking about for a long time. Um, and then Hammondree, John Hammondree, who uh oversees podcast storytelling at al.com, um really loved the idea of it as a podcast. And and at the time I was working for this startup kind of offshoot um at al.com called Wreckin. Um, I was working as an investigative reporter there. And um, so Hammondree kind of tapped me and was like, you know, it would be really cool if the two of you did this together, um, given your expertise on anti-abortion extremism and his expertise on like being there when it happened.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

And did you did you guys know each other before he put you together? Were you all friends before? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

No. And I think like our uh and like true, like these two men, like we're in a group chat constantly now. And like I don't I don't write anything without them seeing it first at this point. Um, so like I love these men, like I trust these men with my life. But I I I think at the beginning I was very skeptical of Archibalds. I'm like, okay, like great, like here's another like dude who's gonna like tell me what to do and how to be. Um because he does also like come off like really gruff at first. And um so, but you know, like the more I think my favorite thing about doing this podcast with the two of them is that the three of us really balance each other out in a cool way. You know, and I think we have, I think Archibald and I have a really interesting rapport. Um, we've got this sort of like big brother, little sister thing going on um that I really love. And I think, um, I think also like added a richness to the story that otherwise we might not have had, you know, sort of this like intergenerational um conversation. Um, but yeah, we we decided to do it. And, you know, I think when we first proposed it, we were like, oh, you know, this will be a six-month project. Uh and then we started getting access to um, we started doing interviews and eventually we got access to the FBI records. Um, and it was the first time anyone uh had ever seen those outside of the FBI. So suddenly, like, and we got those through um a partnership with the Birmingham Public Library. Um, so it's like me and Archibald in like the bowels of this library going through, you know, FBI reports, um, which I think like you are very familiar with what that is like.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

I cannot think of a more fun thing to do than paw through documents like that in the basics.

SPEAKER_03 39:39

Dude, it's the best.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah, yeah. You said one thing. I want I'm I want while this is fresh on my mind, you said something in talking about Archibald and y'all's meeting and that kind of business that reminded me of something in the podcast, which is um Memory Questwell, is that her name?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

She says if he if if if Rudolph had taken some time to get to know me, we're not so different in our bel like I'm she's she's conservative, she goes to the gun range, she does the thing. Like I think that's one of the keys is when we spend time with other people and we get to know them as human beings, then those barriers start to come down. I think that's how it works.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

A hundred percent. I I mean, I think about this all the time as a journalist. Like, I don't I don't want to like spend a ton of time, like all my time talking to people who think the same way that I do or who see the world the same way I do. Like that doesn't make for good storytelling. It's not interesting, right? Um, so you know, and and memory too was like when I initially reached out to her, was very skeptical of me and for good reason. I mean, she was violently outed by the media without her consent. Yeah. Um I remember her talking about her parents. Her parents were embarrassed. I know.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

And I just my heart killed me for her.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

It just killed me. This this girl from like Mississippi, I like it just killed me. Um and so she's got this this woman calling her who like, you know, hey, can we talk about this again? I know, and like probably I'm best known for like writing about abortion and for writing for Mother Jones. And so she's kind of like, what? And I'm like, no, no, no, like I I don't care about any of that. Like I care about you, I care about your story, I care about you know what happens to you and like what it says about um this moment.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

So the interesting thing to me is we deal in unnecessary human drama, and this the Eric Rudolph story is certainly that. Like none of this had to happen. Um and the the pain inflicted on an individual basis is is very real and and tangible. And you think about um memory and the the wound through her shoulder that that that severs an artery, and I I'm I'm shocked that she's not dead from that wound. Yeah. Um the police officer in Birmingham and the nurse who was who's horribly injured. Um, you know, you can you can trace those traumas very specifically. But there's there's a a broader trauma that happens that that that has to do with, like you said, uh 1996, the Olympics being held in the South, was a big deal for those of us that grew up in the South. It's like, hey, we finally arrived, we have this nice thing here. And then the I remember my father, who is a pretty conservative old West Tennessee dude at the time, um saying, you know, it's awful, it's awful, this is bad, this is bad, but it's just embarrassing for us as southerners. It's just embarrassing. And I don't want to make light of it because that embarrassment is a deep, deep, deep embarrassment. It's not just like, oh shoot, I wish that didn't happen. It's it's a deep, like painful embarrassment. In your podcast, you deal with the individual traumas and the broader traumas, I think, in in an absolutely beautiful way. Um, but you do so much more than talk about the bombings and the manhunt that you tied this whole story to extremist ideologies that fueled Rudolph's violence and quite honestly fueled Timothy McVeigh's violence. Um, and I I've worked on other cases that involve people that you know are tied to both of these Rudolph and McVeigh and and some of the similar places. Talk about and tell us why you wanted to tell this story now.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

No, I think that some something that that the three of us talked a lot, talked about a lot um while we were working on this podcast is this kind of reluctance to um feed into the like true chrimification of this story. Um and you know, kind of leave it at this bad thing happens, and here's like all the gross parts that we like want to see as as human beings and these like deep hidden parts of ourselves. Yeah. And like we that's not the story that we want to tell. That that doesn't feel like it puts any good out in the world. Um and I think all of us are really disturbed by uh rising extremism in this country and um rising like mainstream, mainstream white supremacist rhetoric. Um so, you know, it felt really important to point this out and and say there have been all these moments throughout history where we could have looked at this as more than an isolated incident, more as like a not not as like a quote unquote lone wolf incident and taken this movement really seriously. And maybe if we had, we wouldn't be here today. And we still have an opportunity to take it really seriously. Like we still have an opportunity to stop the train, to like figure this out and say, like, we don't, this is not what being American is. This is not what like being a good human is. Um so it felt really important to say, like, yeah, like this is a really messed up case. And it's indicative of this broader thing that we're seeing in state houses and rhetoric that we're hearing from the White House and ideology that's like affecting our policy in our day-to-day life in this country in a way that you know was unimaginable back in the 90s, but now we look back and we can see this really clear path to where we are now. So, what does that mean for the future, right? Like what kind of opportunity do we have right now to keep it from going even further?

SPEAKER_02 46:11

The imagery that comes to my mind is you're saying what you just said is the the shrapnel trajectory at the abortion clinic in Birmingham, where they they had all the threads going out showing where everything impacted the building. And what you're talking about is there's a lot that's gone on that has impacted a lot of things right now. Um, and following that thread through. It's hard, Rebecca. You know, you and I have talked about this. Um it's difficult to investigate events from decades ago. You're dealing with you know modified memories, calcified memories. Um in this story, you're dealing not only with trauma, you're dealing with extreme ideologies at a very polarizing time in this country that I think I can safely say you and I both adore. We we we grew up here. This is this is our home. Um how do you approach an investigation like this? And did you have trouble getting people to talk to you?

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Yeah, I mean, I think particularly, you know, for for both of us, I think like the South is home. And like despite like all of the like horrendous things that have happened here, like we want better for this place, right? Like, we want better for our families, we want better for our friends. Um, and so you know, it it felt really important to tell this story also kind of through this like southern lens, um, and and you know, with with the kind of intentionality of these like three southerners and their like storytelling instincts. Um, yes, it it was sometimes difficult to get people to talk to us. Um so and and that's okay, right? Like, for example, like Jermaine Hughes didn't never respond to any of our requests. And actually that kind of makes me adore him even more just because like I think he was saying no for the or he was ignoring it for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Absolutely. And I'm just I'm struck by the fact that this this this kid at the time, this young, young man at the time, college student, uh, I think pre-med at the time, ends up going to Harvard Law School. Like, he's not here to be a hero, he's here to put his head down and do the work. Um, and I I love that, but you know, not only getting people like him to talk to you, but you're you're you're talking, you're you're talking to survivors. Um you know, how do you feel?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah, I mean, asking asking a survivor to relive trauma like that is not a small ask. And I, you know, this is not it and something that like I think all three of us are really sensitive to. You know, we we've been journalists for for a long time. I've done a lot of investigation um into systemic sexual abuse. Um and so, you know, I I think we really did our best to um wherever we could, like make people feel safe and to also, you know, assure them over and over, like, hey, this is your story. Like, this is not about us. Like, we don't have ownership over this thing you do. So, like, take your time. If at any point you want us to go away, we'll go away. Like, it's it's totally like I I think it it every time I do an interview like that, it feels very, very, very crucial to like make sure that the person being interviewed actually has the autonomy in the interview, not me.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

One of the things that strikes me as an investigator, and I'm certain it strikes you as an investigative journalist, is not only is it critical that we make the the person we're talking to feel safe um in that moment and to have agency in telling their own story, but there's a there's a huge responsibility on your shoulders and my shoulders and your reporting partner's shoulders to then do with that interview a thing that honors that person's story. Um that that that that gets that gets their story told in a way that is that is meaningful and um doesn't dismiss them, doesn't uh use it in a way that talk to me a little bit about that. I know I've gone off script, but talk to me about how you think about using interviews like that.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah, I mean, I think we just always want to make sure that everything people tell us is is in context. Um that, you know, we're we're treating people with respect and uh we're being really thoughtful about the story. And that it's not that it that it doesn't drift into this kind of like tawdry territory that you and I were talking about earlier. You know, like we we have had conversations with some like documentary filmmakers and and you know uh production companies who have expressed some interest in taking this on. And you know, the thing that we've been told time and time again is like you you need to strip out all the politics, like you need to strip out all the stuff about you know, white supremacy and the ideology, and like we just need like the true crime of it. And at that point, like we're just kind of like fuck off. Like that's not the story that we're trying to tell. That's not that that doesn't, it's it strikes, it certainly strikes me as so disrespectful to the trauma that the very real trauma that people have endured at the hands of Rudolph and others like him. Um, and it's just not something that I'm interested in engaging with.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Um I think there's that too.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

That's a genius way to answer that question. Was there any, was there any moment in interviewing a witness where you were just like gobsmacked, like just totally caught off guard?

SPEAKER_01 52:03

I mean, I think the entire time we were we were interviewing memory, like I I was just like I was so blown away at how generous she was with us and how vulnerable and um yeah, I I just like I'm so grateful to her. Like that that is going to be one of those interviews that I remember for the rest of my life, honestly. Like just even just like being in that room while she was telling the story, um just really shook me to my core. Um, I think, you know, because I'm also like a southern woman who like grew up conservative, and I'm not conservative anymore, but like I felt so much kinship with her. Yeah. Um and it just, you know, like the idea that you could just be at a bar, like celebrating your friend's birthday, and something like that happens to you and changes the trajectory of your life forever, yeah, was really mind-blowing for me.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

I think anyone who has been doing the work that you and I both do for 10 years or more is going to have at least one uh interview that that that stops them in the tracks and makes them think. At least one. Um and if you're if you're an investigator, if you're a journalist, and you get one of those moments and you find a witness who is generous, honest, and they can face that traumatic experience and tell the story with with what I can only describe as just insane equanimity, it's it's it it does not ever leave you. I've had one interview like that in my entire career that literally left me gobsmacked and and weeping in a in a um convenience store parking lot afterwards. Um So if if you're if you're in this business, if you're in this work of interviewing witnesses and talking to people, um if you're lucky you're gonna have an interview like that. Um Back, let me ask you this. Interview tips. Um what what interview tips can you give investigators about uh building trust and talking to witnesses who've been through extreme trauma? And I'm I'm almost hesitant to use the word trust because I don't I don't necessarily need someone to trust me. I need them to have rapport with me if I'm being totally calculated and manipulative about the interview process. But talk to us about you know some some tips you can give investigators about trying to build that trust and and and um honoring them.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Yeah, I mean, I I think like the thing the thing that I always kind of keep in mind is um that it's such a profound gift to get to have conversations with people like this. Um and I think I think I cherish it even more lately as it becomes like harder and harder to find people who are willing to talk across these sort of like partisan and ideological lines. Um so I I think it's also you know, going into an interview with um a kind of respect and a kind of like gratitude um to be able to have that kind of interaction with another human being. Um, you know, I I also Archibald and I have like profoundly different interview strategies where like I am, you know, the crazy person who is like up until like three in the morning, like reading absolutely everything and taking crazy notes and like we have to ask them this, this, this, and this. Um, and he he's the guy who just like rolls up and starts like talking, you know. And they're both, I think they both have value, both strategies have value. And and what I really loved about this podcast was like, I think we actually balanced each other out really well with those interview strategies. Um, because I knew like weird little like minute details that he never would have known. And he could like relax and zoom out and see the full picture in ways that I couldn't because I was so like zoomed in on the trees. Um, so you know, I I think like trying to have that balance of being prepared, but not being overprepared and and also having that. He has this really beautiful ability to just put people at ease. Like you just want to sit down with him in a cup of coffee and talk until the sun goes down, you know. So I think like bringing that kind of warmth and energy to an interview um can be really helpful. I also think it's very important to um be honest as much as you can about what you're doing and like take the time to describe like, here's why I'm here and here's why I'm asking these questions. Because in journalism specifically, I think we've done a really poor job of educating people about what journalism is and what we're even trying to do. And it's left this gap for people to kind of project all kinds of malintent into, um, which goes into a whole other rant that I won't subject you guys to. But um, I do think like people feel reassured when you can tell them why you're doing the things that you're doing and and you can show them like, hey, I I have good intentions here and I I have I am an honest person, and and you can ask, you can ask me any. I always tell people like you, I you are sharing so much with me. Anything you want to know about me, I will tell you. I will be honest with you about that.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Yeah, I find that when you when you so for for private investigators, by and large, if we mislead a witness, especially in a criminal case, like that could be really, really, really problematic for our attorney clients at some point down the line. Um, so I think it's always critical to be honest. Here's who I am, here's what I'm doing, here's what I'm trying to get. I want to hear your side of the thing, I want to hear your story, that kind of business. Um, and I'm I'm saying all those things in a very fast, kind of almost rapid-fire way that that process may take five minutes to get across. But um I think that that that willingness to share parts of your story um can certainly help people put them at ease. Let me ask you this, Becca. I've listened to the entire podcast. Um I think some folks are gonna kind of listen to the podcast after they hear this podcast. What do you want listeners to take away?

SPEAKER_01 58:40

You know, I think I think I just want people to understand the kind of fear and rage that underpins the ideology that I and I don't even want to say that Rudolph felt prey to it because I think there's there's also like Rudolph had agency, right? Like he chose this path, like this is not something that like he was manipulated into. Um, but I do think that people need to, you know, really think about why this has taken such a hold in this country and what it means that we have people who are in power who are spouting, you know, for example, like great replacement theory, which is this conspiracy theory that people of other races are like coming and like taking over um and taking power away from from white people. Um, like I I just I hope that people listen to the podcast for um for like the the research and um the context of this political moment beyond just kind of the like here's this like crazy ass story, you know?

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Well, come for the crazy ass story, come for the true crime, but leave with the context. Um I think the the the story to to and again I literally just finished listening to the last episode 10 minutes before we got on the line here, but the the the thing for me is it is a gripping, compelling story um in and of itself, the actual story of Eric Rudolph and the bombings and the manhunt and all that stuff, but the the context from 1996 to here it is 2026, um, and and the ideology behind those things and understanding that there's there's an ongoing messaging that is that is how to even say this is counter to being a good human being, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

Rebecca Andrews, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Um I do want to say congratulations to you. Uh I I understand American Trapnel has been shortlisted for a big award. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Yeah, it's been shortlisted for an award with the New York Radio and Documentary Awards. Um, you know, I have to be honest, I have not paid a ton of attention to all the award stuff. God bless our sweet producer, John Hammond Tree, for entering this podcast into all kinds of things. Um, but we're excited. You know, I think we've been really uh grateful for the ways that people have responded to the podcast and have interacted with us about it. And um, we're looking forward to that dialogue continuing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

I love it. To everyone listening, the podcast is American Shrapnel, the webinization of Eric Robert Rudolph. You can download it wherever you get your podcast. Becca Andrews, nice work, and thank you for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yes, ma'am. I'm Hal Humphries, your host, and that's the Sound of Pursuit for this week. Join us next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

You've been listening to the Sound of Pursuit, a podcast by Pursuit Magazine and PI Education.